This will be an interesting post. This is an example of how a very educated liberal discusses how he doesn’t believe in the liberation of other species, how humans are more important, how he thinks that the food one choices and the lifestyle one has, has nothing to do with making the world a better place. This comes from an ex activist for equal and labor rights. Now he doesn’t mind the libation, or blood spilled by billions and billions of animals every year to his false god to give back for his sins of gluttony, vanity and hubris. He uses non humans as his everyday Jesus.
excerpt from a conversation online of someone trying to make a liberal extend his compassion to more than just LGBT, workers, and humans:
Bonnie Lad: “I watched this about 10 years ago. WAKE THE FUCK UP.
James Cromwell, star of Babe narrates Pig Farm Investigation click below.
This is NOT an exception JOHN DOE. these beings are treated like this all day long every single day, so you can tout that you have a BLT to stop your boredom at your meeting. please find your empathy and learn about veganism. the greatest social justice issue of our times. 100s of MILLIONS of animals are killed in ONE single day…. is your BLT worth that? this is fact. NOT dogma. i HATE seeing educated people like you make excuses when you know you are not living up to your values of the greater good for everyone. You can continue your cruel hypocritical lifestyle, but at least you do it knowing the reality now, and knowing you are making a choice to live inhumanely. ”
- JOHN DOE “Well, I’ve been called a lot of things, and usually it doesn’t make much of a difference in how I see things. It doesn’t now. Frankly I think it says a lot more about you and your approach to debate and discussion, and possibly about the whole outlook you’re promoting than it does about me. But I am willing to engage this with you, since you’ve “called me out” in this public way.
I think this disagreement turns on two questions: whether it is OK to eat animals, and how we will change the world. I think we both agree that the world is oppressive and unjust and needs to change. But I think we have sharp disagreements about the rest.
I start from a point of view that the world we live in is divided into haves and have-nots by a tiny class of human beings who are willing to do anything, including destroy the planet itself, in order to maintain the system that provides them with wealth, power, and privilege. I think that such a system needs to be overthrown, and another one put in its place that can really unleash all our creativity to fix the ways they’ve fucked us all up. Based on some things that you’ve said here and elsewhere, it seems that you agree with parts of what I’ve said here, at least tenuously.
But it also seems that your outlook is that all humans share something of an equal blame in fucking up the planet. You’re not alone in thinking this, by any means, but I think that the thinking behind it is flawed, and doesn’t grasp some basic, structural realities–and therefore leads to some individualistic and unworkable conclusions, i.e., that by changing our diets, we can change the world. No, we can’t. We can make all the lifestyle choices we want about what we eat, wear, where we live, etc., and the bourgeoisie will just figure out another way to package and sell it to us, while continuing to fuck the rest of the world. As long as they remain in power, we’re all fucked–some way worse than others.
Leaving aside the other question for a second, about whether it’s ok to eat animals, when you treat all humans who eat meat, or wear leather, or use animal products in whatever way as being intractably fucked-up hypocrites on a par with the people who are profiting immeasurably from making the earth miserable through exploitation, war, and destroying the environment, you’re making a basic and serious flaw. The world does divide into oppressor and oppressed, but the oppressor class is a tiny minority. It uses every means at its disposal to keep us divided against ourselves rather than against them, and it is necessary for us to completely uproot the oppressive ideologies that fester under capitalism if we’re going to get free. But if you lose sight on the fact that only a tiny minority of people truly benefit from this system, and if you in fact INSIST that a large majority of humanity is equally fucked, well then, really, you’ve fucked yourself and any chances you have in playing a part in transforming this world that is in such desperate need of transformation.
This hyper-individualistic, self-righteous and sectarian ideology of militant veganism that zeros in on such a small facet of the problem created by capitalism is played the fuck out, and people need to get off that shit. You can eat however you like–but the minute you start using that as a basis of determining who friends and enemies are, you’re so fundamentally missing the point.
I’m going to leave it at that for now.”
- JIM JONES: “Guilt comes with lots of words, every. single. time. You don’t have the “right.” You pay the oppressor to feed you. You pay the oppressor to keep you sick, to kill for you. You pay the oppressor to screw the illegal employees who jab a mother cow in the jugular so you can slurp up her misery. You create new problems that were never there before in your attempt to oh so eloquently fuck the earth, “ethically.”
- JOHN DOE “How’s this for a few words then? Grow up. Take on the content of what I said, or run along.”
- Bonnie Lad ”JOHN DOE i know i was a bit rough. but you know, i cannot stomach that my educated friends pick and choose their single issues. there are 100s of millions of non humans stuffed into tiny spaces, imprisoned, kicked, punched, beaten, tortured, raped, kidnapped, and killed, because people don’t know any better. When people are then told about it, and they do nothing but tell me they don’t like the way i tell them about it, what else is there to say? i have given you videos. you were an activist 20 years ago. you know how to look up information. you should be leading the way to freedom for ALL…not just humans.”
- James V KING: “JOHN DOE, its a shame you can’t see past your desires. I feel sorry for you because you seem intelligent, but to say that lifestyle and diet choices have nothing to do with the way the planet is heading and societies immanent collapse truly makes you look like you’re grasping at straws to validate your own inaction. ”
- Bonnie Lad ” also JOHN DOE you said the oppressor is the small minority… capitalism CHANGED that…. and you are a fine example…today you chose to eat an animal that was in a cage her entire life, raped, forced to give birth to piglets, and have them taken away, who was then driven on a truck to a hell hole that is a slaughterhouse.
• slavery and massacre
• you cannot, as a thinking individual that i know you are, condone it.
If you are not vegan, you are simply not living up to your values that you claim to have. Not being vegan because there are other issues wrong with the world, vis a vis war, and the rest of the horrible things, well, that is just bullshit. I looked up to you back then, and IN FACT you were one of those people that had influence on me becoming the caring, fighting compassionate person i am today. It’s true. JOHN DOE is intelligent. and i always thought so. ”
- James V King “Don’t bother John Doe, he’s evidently retired from getting to the bottom of things. Its a shame when the old guard stop giving a shit and give up. ”
- John Doe “Putting my kid to bed. Will get back to this tomorrow. James V KING: go fuck yourself, you presumptuous twit, I’m not talking to you.
- Bonnie Lad:
“ok. Well, i brought it up to JOHN DOE because i hold very intelligent people up to higher standards. i want them to see reality that is hidden behind magazines, television, stores and all the noise that keeps us complacent. i don’t usually waste all this time with others OK. so here is the part that really bothers me that JOHN DOE said: (“This hyper-individualistic, self-righteous and sectarian ideology of militant veganism that zeros in on such a small facet of the problem created by capitalism is played the fuck out, and people need to get off that shit. You can eat however you like–but the minute you start using that as a basis of determining who friends and enemies are, you’re so fundamentally missing the point.”) it’s just untrue. i don’t care what people eat. i DO however care who is being exploited and massacred for that unnecessary food. let’s clear up now: veganism has NEVER been about being vegan, and NEVER will be; no matter how many people who are too enslaved by culture or taste buds or habit or other reasons continue to call ME extreme. Self righteous? i think we are all made equal!! which is precisely why i do NOT think i am better than others, nor other species. how i treat humans in my daily activities is not in question. i treat people equally, i fight for the rights of all… even knowing they are paying for the suffering of animals on a daily basis. i agree John Doe, it was pretty shitty to call you out on here. but i really admire you in many ways and for that i very much wanted to make you see that you are not living in accordance to your values. do you teach your kid about loving animals? did/do you read your children’s books anthropomorphizing non humans? do you teach your child about the environment? did you read your child the lorax? do you then put these animals in your child’s food on a daily basis? i won’t even touch on the health ramifications here. i know it’s been a while, but i know you, and i know you do NOT condone violence, and you have a chance to learn a new way of living and eating and seeing the world and i really hope you don’t pass it up. you of all people know this: in EVERY social justice movement, people for the ethical treatment of a particular group have been demonized, called radicals, and extremists. i think it’s a real shame that you would not realize what you have said. it’s the majority of human deeds that are extreme. the real problem with veganism is that it is about the ethical treatment of another species who cannot defend herself. and it is up to the few of us who will not shut up to right this terrible wrong. i think watching this 10 minute video of the ex VP of citibank should explain it all John Doe. Click the photo to watch it. You will be very surprised.
Australian Philanthropist, Former VP of Citibank, Makes Blazing Animal Rights Speech, Wollen is a former VP of Citibank and Australian philanthropist
- Bonnie Lad: ” Im not militant. i am sweet, gentle, kind, giving, compassionate, generous, i am against war, am for education, i am for healthy school lunches, i am for public art programs, public radio before it had adverts, I am for equal rights for ALL, I am for free speech for everyone including haters, I give my time freely to educate about healthy eating, i volunteer for the red cross, and i do not support slavery of any species. so tell me again how militant i am, because that is SIMPLY RIDICULOUS”
- James V KIng; “John Doe, i’m sorry you refuse to confront yourself and your own complacency with these important issues. Sometimes it gets to be a lot to handle, but its no reason to just give up John D. I am truly sorry that you can’t see the connection between lifestyle and the enslavement, destruction and ultimate neglect of this world and the creatures on it. Its a shame. People look away all the time just to fulfill their desires. The choice you make to look away has a dramatic effect, one that sets a poor example, especially for your child. ”
- John Doe “OK, look, some of the things you are saying are absolutely true: that the way of life and patterns of consumption promoted under this system are completely unsustainable, and need to be radically changed. I think that we need a revolution to do that, and a lot of other things–which I don’t really understand how you characterize as “a single issue”. I disagree with you on two major points: that the suffering of animals is the same thing as the suffering of humans, and that the way to change the world is for everyone to just stop consuming animals. Animals don’t possess the same sentience as humans–let’s face it, if they did, life on earth would be waaaayyyyyy different. And while I agree that factory farms are bad for a lot of reasons, I don’t have any problem whatsoever with people eating meat. It should be done sustainably, and we should be fighting for a world where that is the case. As for how to change the world, you can either find ways to unite all people in whose interest it is to get rid of this oppressive system, or you can paint yourself into a tiny little corner with a few people who already think like you, and talk mad shit about everyone who doesn’t. Anyone who knows me knows that I don’t have a problem with being provocative, but if your provocations flow from an outlook that says that the enemy of the earth is 99% of humanity, you’re already in a dead end and can’t possibly unite with people to change anything, even the one issue that you’re placing above all others. You’ve defined the problem in a way that doesn’t correspond with reality, so your solutions are whack. Note that I’m not judging you personally, because I think that you *are* a kind, generous, compassionate person. I’m just following the logic of the political line you’re promoting, and taking it from where I take to be its underlying assumptions to its logical conclusions. But I am done with this conversation, because I don’t think it’s possible for it to go anywhere when it’s accompanied by so much noise from people who prefer character attacks over debate. Seriously, when you start questioning how people you’ve never met are raising their children because they eat meat, you’ve veered into the territory occupied by sidewalk preachers who yell “you’re murdering your baby!” at women going into an abortion clinic. So take care, and stay well
- Bonnie Lad: “The only revolution needed John DOE is one where educated people like yourself make your mind up to stop supporting the destruction of our planet and other species who have just as much right to live as you and me. the battle for creating a non violent , beautiful and healthy world is lost every time a person like yourself, armed with information, decides to not take personal responsibility and change him/herself,and instead says a revolution is needed. Don’t forget John Doe that woman were once property. People argued they were not capable of thought. People argued that black people were like “animals” and thought abolitionists were extremist radical freaks. Now YOU are one of those people…on the opposite side… Calling us freaks for caring about animals that are not human…. Shame on you John Doe. You’ve become what you despised. If you think animal’s aren’t sentient, that’s just YOUR thought. You have NO right to decide who is in what position in the hierarchy. Humans based on deeds alone would belong at the bottom. Every single time people like yourself choose to ignore this the battle is lost.”
- John Doe ” I thought I made it clear that I wasn’t making it personal. I didn’t call anyone a freak or an extremist. I did tell your friend to go fuck himself when he presumed to make character judgments about me and how I’m raising my child, but that’s a different matter. I’m taking on the ideas here. You don’t seem willing to separate that from trying to evaluate my character, to judge me as a hypocrite, sell-out, whatever. That’s not debate. So I guess we’re done.
- Chowder: “John Doe, please don’t curse at me because you weren’t talking to me. But I’d like to throw my two cents in here, respectfully. I find it unbearably sad that you think we can’t change the world. What’s the point of living, of having children, of anything if the world is going to go to absolute shit? The only thing keeping me going is knowing that one day our minority will become the majority for one reason or another, and although it may be too late, there’s the chance that the shift will happen on time. And we’ll be able to do something, anything, to make up for our mistakes as a race. Not every human is responsible for the fucked up way the world is (I’ll get back to this). But those who refuse to acknowledge that eating meat is not sustainable and therefore is damaging the earth (not to mention the biggest greenhouse gas producer is livestock) is just like saying that nuclear bombs wouldn’t damage the earth. The evidence is there. The facts are there. Eating animals is, of course, not the only thing we’ve done to destroy the beautiful planet we inhabit. But it’s one of the bigger mistakes we’ve made. I’ll go back to the point you made about responsibility. Unfortunately, as an intelligent person who has the ability to understand simple facts, it is your responsibility in an ethical sense to do something with those facts. I’m surprised your conscience isn’t telling you the same thing. It is also our responsibility to do our damnedest to reverse the damage our parents have done. Is it fair, if we all drive hybrid cars and recycle and eat a strict vegan diet? Why should we have to do anything else? Because we were born into a really fucked up time. And that put the inevitable responsibility to fix and change the world on our shoulders. I just can’t believe you made it sound like you think it’s pointless to even try. Why would you bring a child into that world, then? A world so hopelessly lost?”
- John Doe: “I didn’t say that we can’t change the world. That’s the opposite of what I said. But it won’t be changed using the methods and ideology being upheld by the vegans in this thread. I described how it can happen and with what methodology (unite all who can be united against the oppressor capitalist class) at some length and compared that to the methodology and outlook Beth’s putting forward (choose to stop eating animals, and trash everyone who doesn’t agree with you). You apparently only saw what you were looking for which confirms what you already think, and then overlooked what I actually said. I think if you’re serious about changing the world, you need a very different approach.” (WHAT, LIKE ONE WHERE ENTITLED FUCKS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT?)
- James V King: ” What you are saying is a cop out. A very wordy cop out. Simply because you are making excuses to continue participation in THE most destructive system on the planet. As if they deserve the suffering inflicted upon them for you. They feel pain and cry out in terror. For all your activism John doe, it’s a pity you cannot find the revolution inside. Maybe one day you will truly understand”
- John Doe: “I thought I told you I wasn’t talking to you, you arrogant fuck.”
- Bonnie Lad “You are the direct cause of suffering John Doe. How can you reconcile that??? How did slave owners try to keep their slaves? By saying that it was their personal choice, and that if people wanted to get them to give up slaves, they were going about it the wrong way.. And they needed to be nicer about it
- Jason V Kero Are my posts too wordy? I’m sorry you can’t see your own participation in this extremely violent cycle of capitalistic greed and abuse. Way to be a true cog in their sick machine. Keep hacking of the branches.You are their pawn John doe, face it. Have fun with that. ”
- Bonnie Lad: “You are a caring compassionate person. How can you reconcile it John Doe ??? How? It’s wrong. It’s ethically wrong, and even you yourself despise violence and inequality yet for the taste of a bacon sandwich you forget your ethics…. Shame.”
- James V King: ” No matter what you do, or which side you claim to be on john doe, you’re really just like them. Greedy and selfish, making excuses to not change.
- John Doe: “OK. That’s fine. There’s no point discussing anything with people who are basically fundamentalists. Bye. ”
- Bonnie Lad: ” I always liked you John doe and that’s why Ive been desperately trying to get you to see… But I’m done now. I hope you wake up and realize who the REAL 99% is . Also, I’m a fundamentalist!??? I’m against harming others and I’m a fundamentalist? I cannot keep up with the BUZZwords.. I’m an extremist, radical, fundamentalist wow.And all because I tell a person I cared about that he is hurting others.”
- James V King; “:He has his fingers in his ears and a blindfold on. he reminds me of Paul Ryan.”
- Chowder “He accuses me of only seeing what I want to. He responded to one thing out of the many I said/asked and didn’t even elaborate on it, just changed the subject to what he thinks of us. And I’m the one being ignorant? ”
- Bonnie Lad: ” you know what? this SHIT isn’t up for debate. if you aren’t part of the SOLUTION you are part of the fucking problem. NO accountability nowadays…always pushing shit off onto someone else…. well it’s not going to change anything…well my friends do it… well whatever!!! TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE AND STOP LYING TO YOURSELF. (Quote) “I am sometimes asked, ‘Why do you spend so much time talking about kindness to animals when there is so much cruelty to men?’ I answer: I am working at the roots.” -George Angell
So, this is a great example of how educated, liberal, and self proclaimed progressive people defend themselves when confronted with the fact that they are HURTING others, and destroying the planet. Use this to understand the mind of those in denial.
Meanwhile, all over the place in locked buildings, beings are crying out in loneliness, cold, pain, suffering and being murdered, and being forced to martyr themselves as the new JESUSES for a twisted humanity with their blood libations for liberal losers, and many other ignorant people, and tastebud slaves.